Source: New Zealand Parliament – Hansard
Question No. 2—Internal Affairs
2. JAN LOGIE (Green) to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Does she have confidence in the current state of our fire and emergency services, when the NZ Professional Firefighters Union is reporting that FENZ management is failing to keep career fire stations open 24/7 and there are dangerously low staffing levels; if so, why?
Hon JAN TINETTI (Minister of Internal Affairs): Yes, I have confidence in both Fire and Emergency and the 1,800 career firefighters, whom the firefighters union represent, and the 12,000 volunteers who do an amazing job at keeping our communities safe.
Jan Logie: What is her response to firefighter Nick O’Brien, who said last week: “In the last month alone, I did 110 hours of overtime. That is on top of my normal month’s work. … No-one should have to go to work 80 hours … or have to worry their equipment isn’t going to work when they are in an emergency.”?
SPEAKER: I’m going to let the Minister answer the question but I’m going to warn the member that quotes, if they’re to be used, are to be succinct; that wasn’t.
Hon JAN TINETTI: First and foremost, I want to be clear that our firefighters do amazing work and I want to support them as best I can within the remit of my role. And I also want to be clear that, as an independent Crown entity, operational decisions are matters for Fire and Emergency (FENZ) rather than me as Minister of Internal Affairs. But I have met with the New Zealand firefighters union and heard the concerns they have raised, and I take them very seriously. As a result, I have made my expectations very clear to the FENZ board, the executive leadership team, and the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) as the monitoring agency. Now, the advice that I’ve received is that career firefighters work an average of 42 hours per week before overtime, based on two day shifts followed by two night shifts and four days off. Firefighters, on average, spend about 6 percent of their rostered time attending incidents. They are rostered so that firefighters can respond to multiple incidents 24/7. That said, some personnel occasionally work long hours and, like many organisations, Fire and Emergency has recently been impacted by absences due to COVID-19. I have heard these concerns from the union and I’m taking them very seriously within the remit of my role, which is why I continue to have discussions with the union and with the FENZ administration.
Jan Logie: Does the Minister recognise that the low base pay rates, and a desire to ensure that there is always a crew to be able to respond to an emergency in their community, makes it really hard for firefighters to refuse extra shifts even when they’re exhausted?
Hon JAN TINETTI: The member will be aware that industrial action is currently under way and, as the Minister, it would be inappropriate for me to get involved in any of the details to do with the bargaining arrangements. However, I do reiterate, as I’ve said, that I do take the concerns very, very seriously, which is why I’m keeping discussions and conversations open with both the union and setting my expectations very, very clearly with the FENZ executive leadership team and the board and DIA.
Jan Logie: Does the Minister think it is safe and reasonable for a local brigade to have to use a 40-year-old fire truck that’s been decommissioned, jerry-rigging a radio back into it, because no other trucks in the area were functional, as I was told by my local firefighters yesterday?
Hon JAN TINETTI: That brings a wider consideration around what FENZ took over when the organisation was amalgamated back in 2017. Once the new Act was passed and Fire and Emergency was established, the state of the assets inherited from the old rural fire authorities was known to be variable. But the true state of stations’ equipment and workplace culture was worse than anticipated. Fire and Emergency New Zealand also inherited a backlog of deferred expenditure. Significant investment has been required to bring assets and workplace culture to a reasonable state. The focus of the organisation over the last four years has been to put the investment in place to establish a modern fire and emergency service organisation, and in 2020 the Government funded $51.3 million to build or upgrade 26 fire stations in different parts of the country to ensure that these stations were fit for purpose.
Todd Muller: Does she think it is good value for money to spend $145 million on contractors and consultants when fire stations were closed over the last two weekends due to a lack of staff?
Hon JAN TINETTI: As I’ve pointed out, there were quite a number of inefficiencies that happened in Fire and Emergency when it was amalgamated back in 2017. And Fire and Emergency has worked incredibly hard to get on top of this. And as I’ve also said, I do take the concerns of the union very, very seriously, which is why I met with the union just last week. I have had a meeting with the Fire and Emergency executive leadership team to ensure that they are on top of those concerns, and I am looking forward to progress in that area being made very shortly.
SPEAKER: David Seymour. Sorry, can we go to Todd Muller just because that’s the normal way of doing things? I didn’t realise the member had another one.
Todd Muller: On what basis does she think $145 million on contractors and consultants is good value for money when the last year of the Fire Service, prior to the merger, spent $4.5 million on consultants and contractors?
Hon JAN TINETTI: The spend occurred over a five-year period, and we need to be aware of that—over a five-year period. The spend peaked during transition and integration periods, which would not be unexpected during those times. And, of course, once we had moved through those times, in the last year this spend has dropped. I am aware that there is still significant work to do to unify the organisation, particularly in systems, processes, and technologies where external assistance is likely required.
David Seymour: Why did the number of management and support staff increase by 14.7 percent in the first three years of FENZ, despite the number of career and volunteer firefighters, who actually fight fires, increasing by only 7 percent and 6 percent respectively?
Hon JAN TINETTI: That is an operational matter that does not come under the Minister’s remit.
Jan Logie: Is the Minister comfortable with firefighters putting their lives on the line, regularly attending traumatic events with equipment they can’t rely on, and being paid a base pay rate of less than the living wage?
Hon JAN TINETTI: No qualified firefighter is getting paid less than the living wage, and I have gone and I have double checked that today to make sure that that is the case. That is not a fact that is happening. I do take these concerns—and I have said that in this House this afternoon—incredibly seriously, which is why I will keep the dialogue open to make sure that we get these concerns addressed in a reasonable manner.
Jan Logie: Supplementary. [Chlöe Swarbrick holds up a t-shirt with a slogan written on it]
SPEAKER: Order! The member just lost her supplementary because of the behaviour of the member next to her.
Chlöe Swarbrick: Point of order, Mr Speaker. I referred just earlier today to the Standing Orders, which include the ability to use a visual aid as a member supporting a member asking a question or providing a speech.
SPEAKER: Yes, yes, and the ability to use slogans is not one of them. Does the member have a further supplementary? She’s used one out of that exercise.
Jan Logie: Will the Minister commit to an independent investigation of FENZ or at least expand the ongoing Belinda Clark review to encompass the concerns about low staffing levels, pay, poor equipment, and a breakdown in relationship between front-line fire workers and FENZ management?
Hon JAN TINETTI: The member will be aware, as she’s pointed out by referencing the Belinda Clark independent review, that there have been reports of bullying and harassment in claims within the organisation. And that’s something, again, that I’ve taken seriously as the Minister, and it’s why I’ve commissioned some independent work through the Public Service Commission to seek greater assurances that that is in place and is working. Therefore, I want to see that work through to its degree and its end at this point in time. So at this stage, no further reviews of that nature that the member is referring to are planned.
