Source: New Zealand Parliament – Hansard
Question No. 6—Health
6. Hon Dr AYESHA VERRALL (Labour) to the Associate Minister of Health: Does she stand by her statement that “Once my office was fully staffed, operational issues regarding management of information was remedied”; and, if so, how was she unaware until yesterday that she never released an unredacted version of the document to the requestor?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO (Associate Minister of Health): Yes. I reject the member’s assertion that I was unaware an unredacted version had not been released, because she has mischaracterised my personal explanation from yesterday, and I would point out that while the member continues to fixate on old news and trying to find links where there aren’t any, this Government is getting on with actually supporting smokers to quit cigarettes through practical tools and approaches. Contrary to the previous Government’s approach, I am interested in the views of front-line quit-smoking providers—who understand the challenges for long-term addicted smokers—rather than implementing headline-catching, misdirected slogans.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Does she stand by the decision she made to redact the phrases “nicotine is as harmful as caffeine” and that tobacco control measures amount to “nanny state nonsense”?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: The Official Information Act provides for withholding information to maintain the effective conduct of public affairs through the free and frank expression of opinions. I have been clear in this House that the document in question refers to statements, policies, and positions of the New Zealand First Party, and when given by a Minister to officials, it is not unreasonable to think that there are free and frank statements within it, as well as public policy positions that are under active consideration.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Does she understand now that she withheld that information under a section of the Act that only applies to information tendered by officials, and, if so, she should be able to say who wrote it or who gave her that document?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: I have not received any notice about a complaint being made about information released. The member could speculate about anything, but has no grounds for the assertion. I note that if the member were concerned about redactions, the information was received by her in March this year, and no complaint has been made, as far as I am aware.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Supplementary.
SPEAKER: One more.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Why did she claim on Tuesday that her acting contrary to the law was the result of short-term operational issues, when the fact is she continued to inappropriately withhold information while being under investigation by the Ombudsman well into June?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: Yet again, I have not received a complaint in relation to the document in question. So the member can make the assertion, but, frankly, she is not qualified to make that assessment. There is active consideration, as she’s fully aware, around the Official Information Act management.
Rt Hon Winston Peters: Could the Minister please explain to the original questioner, very slowly, that one requestor already had an unredacted copy, which was leaked to him and, no doubt, her?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: Yes. This whole issue arose from a leaked document, for which the ministry has offered apologies.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Does she understand that whether there’s an Ombudsman complaint or not, she needs to be able to explain the decisions she made, according to the Act?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: Yes. All of the explanations around redaction have been made. There is active consideration around policy positions, which is covered for under the Official Information Act, and that has been fully responded to.
Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister as to whether or not in this inquiry she expects to get the information from the original questioner that she had already received an unredacted copy, and what is all this nonsense, therefore, about?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: What I can say is that I apologise to New Zealanders who are trying to give up smoking and are being distracted by an Opposition who has absolutely no ability to understand what important work needs to be undertaken. The previous Government failed to deliver a proper, effective policy position, and we are fixing it.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: So this week are we going to have that sort of theatrics, or are we going to have what we had last week—
SPEAKER: No, no, just ask a question.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Is she going to continue to blame everyone but herself—officials, the Opposition, the media—or will she fess up and just say how the document ended up in her office?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: Could I have the question again, because I missed it with the noise?
SPEAKER: I think a fair warning has been given to the House about people making a noise or whatever during a question being asked, so just don’t push it any further. Would Dr Ayesha Verrall please ask that question again.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: Is she going to continue blaming everyone but herself—officials, the Opposition, the media—or will she fess up and just say how the document ended up in her office?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: This topic has been fully traversed. I have explained repeatedly to this House where the document came from. I’m not sure what the mystery is to the member. She has not made any concerns about the redacted version she’s received.
Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can I ask the Minister: has she or her department, reformed as it now is, been able to work out why on earth you would be trying to seek a redacted copy when you’ve already got an unredacted one?
Hon Kieran McAnulty: There’s no responsibility there.
SPEAKER: Yes, she does.
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: I again would reflect on the fact that this issue is about some advice that was being used to form policy positions. There is a big programme of work going forward, and I hope that when the next legislation comes to the House around vaping controls, we will get support across the House to introduce proper policy positions.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: How has she continued to find herself trapped in the web of her self-contradictions, and how does that reflect on her ability to manage her portfolios in a way that benefits the New Zealand public?
Rt Hon Winston Peters: Point of order. Mr Speaker, you cannot open with a statement like that and expect it to be a satisfactory parliamentary question. I mean, with the greatest respect—and you’re a most experienced person—she should’ve been stopped in her tracks and asked to get some advice about how you conduct yourself in Parliament when it comes to question time.
Hon Kieran McAnulty: Speaking to the point of order—
SPEAKER: OK, you can speak to the point of order.
Hon Kieran McAnulty: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The Minister that is being questioned has on at least two occasions had to correct responses to a number of questions that Dr Ayesha Verrall has asked her. They themselves are contradictions, and so it is entirely appropriate, reflecting on the scope of the question and the history leading up to it, to use that phrase in a question.
SPEAKER: There’s nothing wrong with using the phrase about there being contradictions, but there is a problem with the further descriptors that were put around that. Dr Ayesha Verrall might like to ask the question in a way that brings it into order.
Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall: How has she found herself needing to apologise again for her self-contradictions in the House, and how does that reflect on her ability to be a Minister in the New Zealand Government?
Hon CASEY COSTELLO: I reject the assertions in that question. I did not apologise yesterday; I sought leave to make a clarification and correction of what was said.
